Podcast (Dental)

What Dentists Might Consider When it Comes to Insurance Company Relationships

April 26, 2023

The decision to change your practice’s relationship with an insurance company can be challenging, and the fear of losing patients may be holding you back. In this episode of The Art of Dental Finance and Management podcast, Art meets with John Riley, executive vice president of Amplify 360, to discuss how dental offices can evaluate their relationship with insurance companies to potentially become more profitable.

Art and John also touch on the importance of marketing, including examples of marketing tactics you can use to attract patients.

Reach out to Art if you have any questions regarding dental finance and management for your dental practice. More information about the Eide Bailly dental team can be found at www.eidebailly.com/dentist.

Being more strategic in all aspects of your dental practice will lead to increased profitability.

John RileyGUEST

John Riley
Executive Vice President, Amplify 360

Show Notes and Resources:

The Transcript

Art Wiederman: And hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of The Art of Dental Finance and Management with Art Wiederman, CPA. I'm your host Art Wiederman. Welcome to my podcast. We're in our fifth year doing the Art of Dental Finance and Management with Art Wiederman CPA, and I am a proud Dental division director at the CPA firm of Eide Bailly. I'm located in Southern California, our offices in the city of Tustin, and I've been a dental CPA for 30. September will be 39 years. In fact, it's interesting. I will be by the time this podcast airs, I will have just celebrated the 40th anniversary of the day I met my wife. I was thinking about that the other day. It's just crazy how time flies and and goes by. But it's been a wonderful, wonderful journey and a wonderful journey with you, my audience. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the emails we get and the calls we get and all that stuff. And today I've got a great interview for you and we haven't done a show on dental marketing and growing your patient base in a while, and I've wanted to do this and the opportunity came up and my guest today is going to be John Riley, who's one of the best dental marketing experts in the country. He's the executive vice president of Amplify 360. And we're going to do a very interesting conversation about dental marketing.

Now, all of you know how passionate I am about changing your relationship with insurance companies and how the average reimbursement is, you know, 58 to 62% of your UCR. So I, I encourage doctors to look at changing their relationship. So we're going to talk about that. And as you know, doctors, if you have some of you listening, have hopefully many of you have changed your relationship as much as I would love to tell you that, oh, you're going to keep 100% of your patients if you go out of network with an insurance plan. I got news for you. You're not. I wish you did, but you're not. You're going to if you do it right, we hopefully retain 75 to 85%. But we're going to talk about that with John because he's got a lot of experience with with working with clients, with that and then with the patients you lose. Then we would like to replace them with patients that are not on insurance. And we're going to talk about all the different things in dental marketing and what the most current trends are. So John is my guide today and he's going to help us through that in a minute.

But before we get to John, I got a couple of things to share with you. As always, I want to thank my incredible marketing partner, Decisions in Dentistry magazine. Lorraine Kent and her team are second to none. Their magazine is the number one clinical magazine in the country, the top who's who, and clinical writers and authors. They also have 140 continuing education classes at a very reasonable price. They're coming out with a brand new platform for front offices, videos. I mean, they are the premiere magazine website. Go to WWw.DecisionsinDentistry.com. We're going to put this podcast up on the Internet at the end of April. So we're recording here in the middle of April, beginning of April, I guess. And so a couple of things I want to share with you. Number one, through the California Dental Association, we are doing two programs in Northern California, which is we call them are our now and next programs. They will be Saturday, June 10th and Thursday, June 22nd. And what we're doing, doctors, is I will be there live and I'm going to give you the locations and the Times in a minute. But I will be there with our friends from Bank of America and I'll be there with the folks from Tri-C, Katie Fanelli from the CDA. And what we're doing is we're we're gearing these live lectures to dentists who are in their first five years of career or maybe haven't even finished dental school. So, you know, do I buy a practice, do I start a practice? Do I go in partnership? Do I go to work for a DSL? What do I do? And we're going to have all the answers for you. So write these dates down. Saturday, June 10th. We just got this information. We're 95% sure that this is going to be at the Almanac Brewing Company, Almanac Brewing Company in Alameda, which is in Northern California. And that will be Saturday, June 10th. We'll do that from 10 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.. So we did one of these events at a brew company in downtown San Diego, and they have beer there. So if you like beer and wine, please do show up and it's going to be a great event. Then we'll. Going to do the same event in Sacramento, and that will be held at a venue called Aurora, which is in downtown Sacramento. Thursday, June 22nd, from 530 to 10 p.m.. And that walking that venue is right next to the CTA building. So I'm actually going to go up a little early and see a bunch of my friends at the CDA before we do that program. So if you want to sign up for those, go to WWw.CDA.com. And I believe there is a place to click on to programs. Or if you are having trouble, let me know. I am at 6572793243 as well as my email. AWiederman@EideBailly.com. And speaking of that, folks were just finished April 15 tax filing deadline. So if you are looking for a new CPA that knows everything and anything about the dental profession, please contact me. We got you covered and we do so many things that Eide Bailly it's frightening. So anyway, we'd love to hear from you. Also, if you're coming to the CDA convention, I am speaking three different times. I'm speaking from 930 to 11 on Friday morning and speaking from 11 to 1130 on Saturday morning and I'm speaking from 130 is 330 on Saturday afternoon. They will all be on the subject of transition, younger Dennis, Older Davis, things like that. We are at Booth 1472. Please come by and say hello. You know, tell me you listen to the podcast. We're going to have the most important thing that you need to know about coming to our booth is we're going to have Hershey's chocolates and the dentist love the Hershey's chocolate. So people say to me, I say, I bring in Hershey's chocolates to the CDA and they say, We're ready. These are dentists. They should be in charge. You know, they love chocolate, so don't worry about it.

Well, anyway, with that said, I'd like to get to my guests today. John Reilly is the executive vice president of Amplify 360. John has been in this company, his company, for just over 20 years. And I'm going to let John tell you a little bit about himself. And so anyway, we're going to talk about, like I said, you know, a little bit about maybe changing your relationship with insurance and then all the things you want to know, you know, about marketing. So, John Reilly, welcome to the Art of Dental Finance and Management.

John Riley: Well, thank you so much, Art. I appreciate that intro. And yes, I'm excited to be here and and a little bit about myself is that, like you said, is that I've been with I start out with Tyson Steel. I was an employee number one back in early 2002 and August of 22 and then been in the dental space since then. And before that I was in the automotive industry helping to market flip down TVs and cars. And we actually were the innovators here in Eugene. So I had I have 30 years of 30, 35 years of of marketing and sales in different industries. So I'm glad to be a part of this.

Art Wiederman: Well, thanks for joining us today. Now, I understand, John, that you mentor young people. Tell us a little bit about that.

John Riley: Yes. Is it? Well, is was a big part of what my wife and I do. Is it we love to mentor college students. Why? Well, it keeps us young, right? We have two college age students ourselves as far as my son, Brayden and my daughter Caleb. But we actually grew up in the and we actually met doing college ministry together. And it was something that we ended up doing kept kept on going. And so we, we mentor college students and, and one of which that I know that you had mentioned that you are a USC fan and I'm an Oregon doc, so. Oh, oh.

Art Wiederman: This could get ugly today. Could get ugly.

John Riley: Well, it could get ugly. I'm a stats guy. I love numbers just like you do. And you love numbers, Art. I do. You're going to love this number. Maybe not, but one of the college students that we mentored, he happened to be a running back for University of Oregon. And he is now gone on to the NFL and he's been in there in the NFL for now. 11. I think it's his 12th year. He he happens to have three wonderful rings around his fingers from the Eagles to the Patriots and then with Tom Brady down in Tampa and now KENYON Barner and.

Art Wiederman: Oh, yeah, he's real good.

John Riley: But I won't. I won't rub this in too much. But one of my favorite stats of KENYON is he had 321 yards rushing against U.S..

Art Wiederman: All right. So that's the end of our podcast today. Thank you very much. And we'll see you later. So anyway. No, just kidding. No, no, no, no. Everybody in my audience knows that. You know, I'm a graduate of Long Beach State University and our football team is undefeated since 1993, since they disbanded the football program. So I had to pick a school and, you know, just that's the school I you know, so that means that all other schools will stop listening to this podcast. Oh, well, that's why I goes. All right. Well, with that said, I'm a big I mean, I can talk sports, you all know, for for days and days. Let's get to our discussion. John, let's start off let's talk about these pros. They seem to be a really hot topic right now, post-COVID. I mean, why? It seems like, you know, they're hot topic more than ever before. Talk a little bit about that.

John Riley: Mm hmm. That's a great question. I heard. Is it? I think that's the the million dollar question right now is that a lot of doctors don't understand why that is. And until they start to dive into it and I'll give you a quick example is in the ADA on March 9th, literally 30 days ago and 45 days ago or 50 days ago, since this podcast is going to air, is that March 9th of this year. Ada says one out of six dentists are getting out of TPS right now.

Art Wiederman: I heard that. I heard that statistic from. Yes, I did hear that statistic.

John Riley: That's yeah, you can look it up online and read all about it. But but the reason why this is is the phenomenon is the phenomena is this is you start to look at what happened post COVID. So if you start to look into the schedules of a doctor, well, once everybody started to come back, the number one thing was uncertainty, right? People didn't know, is it safe to come back or not? We all know that dentistry is the safest environment on the planet. And no matter what profession and I don't care even what. But, you know, physicians or doctors is that dentistry is the safest. So now with that, there's a lot of uncertainty from patients for whatever reason. And they they when they called to get in, now they're just calling to get in and they're the front office teams are putting them in any part of the schedule anywhere, and they're just jamming them into the schedule and restorative schedule and hygiene. They're getting those patients in as soon as possible. Well, what happens is, is that lack of strategy and that lack of control over the schedule of having the doctor really being in control. And oftentimes the doctor doesn't even know this is going on. Is it by putting patients anywhere and anywhere in anywhere into the schedule, what happens is that record gets booked up now. Now they're getting booked up even further because there's two types of doctors, post-COVID. One is the absent doctor. The doctor that's not doing anything that doesn't believe that they can ever come back from COVID. Therefore, they haven't ever marketed their practice. Patients, their own patients don't even know that if they're really wanting to practice because they're not confident in how they're communicating either internally or from a marketing standpoint. Then the other type is more our type of doctor is the ones that are saying, Listen, in the midst of adversity, there's an equal or greater opportunity. Right? And so so now our doctor is saying, listen, let's take let's take a hold of this and let's really take, you know, the area by storm. So they've been marketing and out marketing. Even many of our doctors marketed all the way through COVID, even when they were closed. Why not? The patients were calling at that time. But what happens is that that that when they came back, guess whose phone was ringing off the hook for new patients? Well, this all of this says is a post COVID. There is turmoil even with some of our doctors that and the doctors coming in. There was so much demand where they said, John, I don't have any room for marketing because I have so many patients. So am I recall is booked out seven, eight, nine months. I don't have any room for anybody. Well, that's because of unfortunately, because of lack of process and strategy within the front office. Therefore, now the doctor is booked out so far that they don't have any room to really grow the practice because the future of their practice is built in hygiene, of course, and go ahead.

Art Wiederman: And unfortunately, unfortunately, since we're talking about pose a lot of these patients, John, that they're booked out with, they're getting $0.60 on the dollar based on their UCR. So they're actually one of, one of my friends in the consulting business would tell me, you know, we would tell patients that, we would tell doctors if they're going to continue to work with these people, they should just have a bunch of cash in there in the front, you know? The front compartment of their debt, of the front office person's desk, and just hand the front hand the patient's 100 bucks as they walk out, you know, don't take payment because it's costing them money to see these patients.

John Riley: Absolutely. I want to share a story a little later about about remember this name, Doctor? I'll call him Dr. Tennessee, so I can share you every bit about the practice. But that is that is so true. I heard about how they're giving they're giving away the farm and they don't even know it because they don't know. You know, I always say you need to know your metrics, know your metrics, and then you're going to be able to make excellent decisions because of your metrics. But going back to that is that doctors are so far booked out that they realize, oh, I need to I need to release the pressure on my practice somehow, some way. Well, the best way to do that is release the pressure on the lowest dollar amount per patient. So I don't want to make it so cold sounding, but when it comes down to it, if you have a if you have a patient that's investing $250 a year with you and then you have your fee for service patients that are investing $650 a year, well, you'd have to have seven or eight of those those and network patients that would produce one fee for service. You're hemorrhaging money and you don't even know it. So yeah, so this time is the greatest opportunity that we've ever seen. And I've been doing it for 21 years and I've never seen this opportunity before, which which makes it very exciting, not for us, but for our doctors, because it's all about bringing freedom to practice the way that they really want to practice, even though they don't know if they really can get there.

Art Wiederman: And this this is what we're talking about. Doctors, you need to be working on your practice, not just in your practice and part of it as a strategy for what are you going to do so now. So, John, we're talking about these PPOs, and I mentioned earlier that, you know, 10 to 25%, you know, I know. Yeah, that's about right. 10 to 25% of these patients will leave the practice. And there are a lot of doctors, unfortunately, who do not who go out of network with people without a coordinated plan. It takes a year, folks, to do this. You don't just send a letter to your patient, say, oh, my patients were out of network with X, Y, Z company, you'll lose 80% of them. You have to start educating them. You start talking to them long before. So, you know, 10 to 25%. I mean, that's about what you're hearing, right?

John Riley: John Yeah, absolutely. Is it? And it really just depends that that is a a variable. You know, there's so many different variables in there that depends on the practice, depends on where the practice is located. It depends on how much goodwill does the doctor have. Did the doctor just take over the practice and then start dropping GPOs? And there's there's so much strategy that has to go on behind this, but there's also things that that is it. Where is the practice located in the community? Is there a bunch of is there is there military, is there a bunch of corporate businesses that are supporting that practice? So there's a lot of different variables that go on here. And ultimately it comes down to really the goodwill of the doctor. And in the end, the most I've ever seen is about 45%. And I'll tell you a story about 45, 40%, if I can share this, this is really good. Please do a doctor out of Sumner Washington. So I'm going to protect our doctors by these are real stories. These are not made up stories for this podcast or anything like that. These are real stories. And and these doctors, if you ever want to do, you can let me know and I can put you in contact with them. They would love to talk with you because these are doctors that have gone through the pain of getting out of a network. But it's it's not one of them has ever said, I wish I would go back. All right. Not one. And I.

Art Wiederman: Agree.

John Riley: I'm going to give you two quick stories. One doctor out of Sumner Washington, where she was so gripped with fear. Now she is an amazing clinical doctor. She's focused on clinical excellence. It's generally who are doctors are the ones that are really trying to provide the top level of clinical care in their area, really doing more dentistry per patient than just being a drill fill in build practice. That's not who we generally work with. And so this particular practice was a doctor out of Sumner. Washington wanted to become 100% fee for service. We had talked about it for years. We'd been working with her for about seven years. Our average doctor worked for this for about seven years. Our top doctors worked with us for about 11 years, 11.1 years to be exact. And so we have a long history with our doctors simply because of what we do and how we how we guide them through this process. But this particular doctor was it was so fun because I. Watch her, her front office, everybody through the process, from communication, when to send the letter, how to send the letter, what the letter should look like. And then on top of that, how they communicate with the patients. Well, this particular one, we had guided the front office. Her name is Annie. Annie. And I was guiding the patient. The patient was walking in the door and she says to the patient, We'll call the patient. Sally said, Sally, I'm sure you've heard of how we've had to change the relationship with with X, Y, Z company and because of what they did to the doctor and they go, What? What do you mean, what do they what do they do to the doctor? And I won't give you your last name, But I said, what did what did they do? The doctor was like, Oh, you didn't hear like, yeah, they have limited the quality of care so much so that we had to change the relationship because, you know, our doctor is all about clinical excellence and she will never, she never wants to apologize for a lack of result. Therefore, we had to change the relationship with X, Y, Z company because we care so much about you. As soon as as soon. Not the doctor is just finishing up in the back office. She walks up to the front and she loves this patient. She knows who this patient's coming in because of course, they have a huddle every day, knows who it is. And and she heard her name and and so she comes up front and the patient said to the doctor, said, said, Doctor, I will never, ever leave you, no matter what X, Y, Z company does, do you count me in? And our doctor just started bawling because she was so worried about dropping X, Y, Z company that that, you know, life was going to be over. But here's the glory. Yes. She actually is one of our our greatest losses as far as number of patients. But here's the key. Don't don't hang your your hat on that on that stat. Yeah. She lost 40% of her X, Y, Z company patients. But here's the key. When we start to we'll talk in a little bit about how to analyze the value of your actual patients, knowing your metrics. This particular with X, Y, Z company, the difference in what I what I say is what is the mob boss willing to pay the dentist, the mob boss being dealt it right or being whatever PPO insurance If they're happy about paying you X fee, let's say $800 per patient per year, and they're happy about that. Well, your fee schedule, doctor, shouldn't be anything close to that because again, they're the mob. They're going to you know, Vegas wasn't built on winners and nor and nor is insurance. Right. So therefore, you should really make sure that your fee schedule, you're always increasing your fee schedule every year, especially if you're marketing to increase that. Well, this doctor we know we've been working with for seven years now at the time, and we knew that she had been so she had raised her fees so much that the difference what I'll say the X, Y, Z company the difference in between her fee schedule and our fee for service schedule and X, Y, Z company was literally $1,000 or I think was like maybe 1100 dollars per patient per year difference. Now, we analyzed this. We knew all this in advance through our practice analysis, but that difference, because she had 40% on X, Y, Z company, the ones that stayed actually increased her revenue so much that her in the same year she dropped X, Y, Z company and lost 40% of the patients. 60% of the patients stayed actually increased her net collections over 27% of her entire practice. So she is so thrilled about dropping that even though it brought a ton of anxiety through that process. She's like, I have the practice of my dreams now, John. Every single patient comes in. I'm fee for service 100%. She's actually dropped the number of days. She's only working 141 days a year. Most doctors work 184 280 to our average doctor. We know that we can get every single doctor to 2 million in collections based on 150 days. She's she's one of them. She's actually doing another 140 days. And so that's that's story number one. Story number two is a doctor out of Tennessee. This doctor calls us up and his wealth manager had referred him to us and he calls us, I think is yours, John. I am. We'll call him again. Doctor Tennessee, The last one was Doctor Washington. But this one is Dr. Tennessee. Doctor Tennessee says, John, I was supposed to call you, but I don't know why I'm supposed to call you.

Art Wiederman: And and that's always a good phone call to get right. I know. And he.

John Riley: Goes. He goes, I go. I go, What What did your wealth manager say? And he goes, he goes, You need to call John and call Amplify 360, because the fact that you're not as profitable as say, oh, so profit. So let's talk about how many people do you have? And because I think that's my problem. And I said, What's that? And he goes, he goes, Well, I go, what's your collections? And. What's your production? I generally don't like to talk about production because the production doesn't mean anything unless you're collecting it, right. But if your production in your collections have a big gap, then I know that you're you're missing a ton of revenue that you're giving away to the insurance companies. Well, this one here was probably the I may never hear something this drastic. He's a doctor out of Tennessee doing $3.8 million in production. Single doctor practice.

Art Wiederman: Yeah. So it must be doing must be doing, you know, quadrants and implied designs and all and forms and placing implants and yes.

John Riley: You guys see Art's eyes when I said that his 3.8.

Art Wiederman: Yeah. One doctor I.

John Riley: Blew up out of his head. Is that when I said that. Yeah. That, that's big, you know, 3.8 million. And I said please tell me that you're not below 2 million in collections. And he goes, actually, am I below 3 million in collections. And he goes, actually I am. He goes, I go, what are you collecting is 2.2 million. So if you took.

Art Wiederman: Up 1.6 million in write offs from insurance companies.

John Riley: Exactly. So now, as you as you know it is, I'm going to take out my calculator and do this with you. 1.6 million. Divide that by 12 $133,000 a month that he's writing off and this is key, doctor for marketing for those crappy PPO patients that are robbing you blind.

Art Wiederman: Yeah it's a marketing expense. That's it Should put that down on your PNL as a marketing expense. I absolutely 100% agree with you, John. So these are great, great stories and true stories. And folks, think about it this way. It's a very simple math problem. Since John and I are required by law to do math on this podcast. Basically, if you lose 40% of your patients and you go out of network with X, Y, Z insurance company, you're going to you know, you're going to make the same money and work 40% less with the 60% of the patients that you retain who you're charging full fee for service. So all well, let's move on in this conversation. And I want to get into the marketing stuff, which is some I love. I'm a I should have got I should get my degree in marketing instead of accounting, actually. But so, I mean, is it possible to drop in your experience, peoples without declines in revenue?

John Riley: Yeah. Is it, you know, just like a story I shared just now. But then but here's the thing. We haven't had one doctor if they follow our plan because you can absolutely do it without a plan and see C declines because it's not strategic and not not done in a in a in a process standpoint, meaning what are the best papers to drop and when. And so so there's you can absolutely do it and it can be done every single time if it's done with strategy. And basically how we work is this is that the the reason why it can be done without dropping in revenue is that you can either do it by hand and do it manually and figure out how to how to make it happen. But I'll tell you, it's a losing proposition because most doctors and you know, whether it's you doctor I'm speaking to or or your friends, generally speaking, you have a sampling of one, two, three, four or five practices Macs that you've ever worked with or with Art and myself. We have we personally have over 10,000 practices that we've worked with in the in the 28 years that we've we've worked with. We have we purchased multiple companies over the years and, and we've worked with over 10,000. So we have samplings of, of a ton of doctors that we have experience with that we've walked through this process and it's all calculated. So like Art was talking about earlier is that is it has to be done in a in a way to where you want to reduce the the lowest payers first. And then over time you're going to release the the highest payers, which are still not your fee for service and knocked down. And tell you this, if you're fee for service schedule matches your PPO schedule, shame on you. Why do I say that? And then a lot of people say, well, why do I why, why would my best paying clients pay the most? Because ultimately you should get to fee for service someday and you should ultimately get paid for what you deserve because of your clinical skill. And this is a quick question I always ask your doctors say, listen, if if if you're writing off 30% of your of your patients or your fee schedule, here's a better way to explain. If your fee schedule is at the 70th percentile or 75th percentile, is there literally 25% of the doctors in your area that are better clinically than you? Every doctor I've ever asked that, they've always said no, they're. Well, then why aren't you getting paid for what you're worth?

Art Wiederman: And why are you apologizing for your fees? That drives me. Absolutely. I learned that early in the in the CPA. Well, in any professional service, if you're providing the ultimate professional service, whether it be dentistry, dental, marketing, CPA, whatever it is, you know, you need to charge a fee that is appropriate for that and never apologize, you know? Right. Well, that seems you know, I get this from consultants. John's just like, well, you know, that's going to be, you know, 10,000. Well, that seems high. Yeah, it does seem high. But for the level and quality of service that you're getting in this dental practice, Mrs. Smith, I can tell you that not only is it a fair fee, but it's going to change your life. These are the types of verbal skills that you need to be using.

John Riley: So one more thing. One more thing on that real quick is that, you know, the other thing that we do is it, you know, how do you know? Well, one thing that we've created since post COVID because of this this this balloon of of doctors getting out of insurance, we've actually created a proprietary software that actually our doctors can tap into. And because you're listening to our podcast, is that I would offer to this to any any doctor that wants this series. Now, we actually have three softwares. We can work with dental tricks, eagle, soft and open dental. Right now we're looking at others. But if you have one of those three softwares, I would be willing to do this as a complimentary analysis on your if you're one of these doctors that want to get it out, get out of peoples and want to do it right, is that this analysis, this this practice assessment tool and analysis is so advanced that we can tell exactly what each what each. So like if you were to go into your dentist right now, there's no report that you can run to tell you how much are you producing per PPO. And then there's a there's a thousand X, Y, Z company’s in there, there's a thousand and I metlife's and so on. You start to dive into that. You're not going to be able to figure out how to what which one should I drop first and win? That's where we come in and be able to share with that software, to be able to say, okay, here's exactly what your capacity of your practices with how many ops you have, how many team members you have, what your current mix of implants to Crown and Bridge and so on. And we put all that together along with your boss to say, okay, here's what your practice could be. Add if you lost 30% or 20% or 27% of your patients, we zero it out and say, Listen, you can afford to lose and make this exact same amount of money. If you were to drop X, Y, Z company or whatever, and do it in this order, and here's exactly the date. So when you're going to send out the letters, here's how you're going to communicate with your patients. We give you all of those step by step processes. And what what art was saying before is that you have two parts. You have you sure we can drop the DPOs, but now we need to replace those those patients that you might have open schedule to be able to say, okay, now what do we do to be able to to fill those gaps?

Art Wiederman: I will. I was I want I was going to get to this in the after I asked you the next question. But since you brought up your your generous offer, John, so tell us a little bit about kind of what you do and if someone is interested in talking to you. I mean, you'll obviously have a conversation with them complimentary to just kind of assess what they got going on. How do we get, you know, tell us a little bit about what Amplify 360 does. And again, we're going to get into this as far as talking about a comprehensive marketing plan, but they want to get a hold of you. How do they get a hold of you?

John Riley: Yeah, easy, easy enough. Is it easy thing to remember is amplify three. Second is that if you go to amplify a three second and you're going to see there's a get started button, they can get started there. I'm also going to give you on this podcast the ability to where they can if you wanted to, you can shoot me a text. I'm very, very personable. I want to I want to help. It's like why we mentor college students.

Art Wiederman: And despite your school affiliation, you're very well, actually very personable. We won't hold that against you.

John Riley: You know, we're not we're not competitive at all.

Art Wiederman: No, not at all.

John Riley: Not at all. Not at all. But we love helping doctors, love taking it to the next level. And we call it breaking through that ceiling of complexity. So I'm going to give you my cell number. My cell number is 541206 3732. And because I'm either potentially traveling, meeting with doctors at events, speaking engagements, and the easiest way to get a hold of me is shoot me a text and say, hey, I was I heard the Art Wiederman podcast and I don't like USC, but I really like Oregon.

Art Wiederman: Guess is why John I have no friends. Because I do stupid stuff like that. But no.

John Riley: It's not good. But you can shoot me a text and say, Hey, I'd love to set up a call to talk about what you guys do and how you guys can help me to potentially get out of CDOs. But but very much like how you guys all treatment plan is that you're not here to to to to wrestle someone to the ground to get them to start your plan If you show them your plan and show the value of what you guys do, that patient will start the plan or not. If they don't value what you guys do, they won't start the plan. Same with us is that we don't get paid until you're ready to start. Same thing on how you get paid from a treatment plan standpoint. They find value. They'll start. If you find value, you'll start with us. I don't want a dime until you tell. Don't make sense that you're a good fit for us and we're a good fit for you, just like you might be looking for that right source. That right marketing source. We are doing the same thing with our doctors. We will turn away doctors if they're not ready, if they're not ready to lead from the front, if they're not ready to, they like change but aren't willing to change. We again can't really help because we're not going to we're not there's no magic bullet or magic pill that from a marketing standpoint, it's going to be because you nailed it earlier. Art is it that that that culture development on communication if you really want to become a fee for service practice, you really want to be kind of a world class implant practice or what have you. We have to change the culture enough that that makes it a world class communication, a world class practice that that when they walk in, they leave without wild feeling. There's it's a it's a whole process. It's no longer a a PPO mentality or what I'll say you know we compare PPO is versus your at your clinical excellence peoples is kind of like a dollar store You're this Nordstrom level practice but you have a dollar store kind of a marketing strategy. Let's change that. Or now we can get that Nordstrom level strategy by texting me and or going to our website and saying clicking on getting started either way does not matter to me. We can then start that process and figuring out to see if we're a good match for you and you're a good match for us.

Art Wiederman: That sounds good. I want to get into now the gist of what I really want to I mean, this is important conversation. Let's talk about the components of a comprehensive marketing plan to replace these patients that if you do choose to go out of network with these insurance companies, that you're going to lose. So why don't you just start talking about, you know, you I come to you, Dr. Schwieterman, I say, Hey, John, I'd like you amplify 360 to do a comprehensive marketing plan. What are the steps?

John Riley: Yeah, perfect. And great question. Before I get there real quick is that I'm going to ask you one quick question because you're a CPA. Is it do you have doctors that have on those on the panel? Do you have that doctors that use multiple marketing firms all at the same time?

Art Wiederman: Um, yeah, I do. They have. I see them. They might work with one main firm, but they'll pay a bunch of other people to have maybe one person doing their CEO and one person doing their social media. And so, yes, I do see that a lot.

John Riley: Right. Well, the reason why I asked the reason why I asked that to start is that when you talk about a comprehensive marketing plan is that the doctor deserves what we call marketing attribution or a market an attribution engine. And what that what that basically summarizes when it comes to marketing is this, is that if a if a patient comes into a dental practice and says, Hey, doctor, I'm going to use you for my cleanings, I'm gonna use another doctor for implants, I mean, use another doctor for my emails and online. Do you think that that patient, if they went to four or five practices, do you think that that patient is going to be is going to ever get to that full true oral health? No, they don't ever get their way because they have four or five doctors have all difference of opinions of what is it going to take that doctor or that patient to get healthy. And one doctor may just be an Invisalign doctor, another doctor, maybe an implant doctor. That's all they really want to sell. So they sold them implants and they're good, but I'm really not getting them to do excellent oral health. That's what marketing attribution is, or it's lacking in most practices. When when a practice when you talk about a comprehensive plan, a comprehensive plan is is it all of your pieces, whether it's Google SEO, whether it's local search, so the map section, whether it's social media having great testimonials on on on social media for big case and we'll talk about that. Or if it's streaming ads or if it's direct mail, whatever it is, marketing attribution needs to speak to one another in such a way that it benefits the doctor. So if you have four or five services, I can guarantee you right now for five different marketing firms, you're using some big some small like like what art was saying. The problem is, is the only person that's losing is you. Now, there's other marketing firms out there. But I'll tell you, there's I've been doing it long enough that we're we're we're solely focused on developing fee for service, profitable practices, increasing the revenue per day, increasing the value per patient, and then ultimately reducing the number of days a doctor works if they want to, and increasing the the amount of what they're doing per per day to where they get to see they get to see this this beautiful part of thing unfolding right in front of them to say, listen, I can work fewer days and do a lot more collections and a lot more production. Absolutely. That's what we want to do. So so marketing attribution is the only tool that that when if they don't have it. Everything is not working together concurrently because you're not under one roof. That's what we do. So when you talk about a comprehensive plan, that's where everything starts to speak to one another. So if you're on Google, if you're going to social media and you guys have seen this already, is that you start to you go on Google and then you go on your Instagram or whatever, and you start to get those same ads or what you're just looking at, right? Everything needs to speak to one another because then it's going to maximize the doctors dollar. That's what it all comes down to, maximizing the dollar. Now we can start to see trends of what people are looking for, what people are really wanting in your practice. Are they are people in your area searching for houses, Ford, F-150 pickups or Mercedes? If all they're wanting to buy is Ford F-150 pickups? We need to figure out how to how to sell your practice in a way that sells more Ford F-150 pickups, but selling them at a mercedes quality, right. That that's the key. So is your area looking for a certain style of product or service? We need to figure out what that looks like. So that's marketing. Attribution is such a key component that's never talked about because if a doctor has a website with somebody else and SEO and Google with somebody else, I can tell you that you're losing a lot of revenue. Doctor, because they're not speaking to one another. They don't there's not one one umbrella that's controlling that, that entire message. And in maximizing your dollar, does that help? No.

Art Wiederman: That's exactly what I want to know. Now, I want to get into the weeds about some of these specific marketing tactics. Let's start with SEO. Everybody hears about I need to have SEO and even remember, I tell my audience that I had I have adult children so they can, for the sole reason of helping me with technology and all this stuff. So I know that SEO means search engine optimization. Is that correct?

John Riley: That is correct.

Art Wiederman: Hey, you got to get to like that. What? Talking about SEO, What do we do on that? I mean, are we talking about, you know, Google ads? Are we talking about I mean, what are we talking about here in SEO?

John Riley: Absolutely. So. So, yes, SEO is real. SEO is a massive part of it, of a doctor's foundation. Why? Because if it's done right, so I'll say two parts. There's SEO, search engine optimization, and there's also local search. Both of those are what we'll call organic marketing to our it's done in the design and in the back end of your campaigns to where if it's done right now, that becomes the foundation of your marketing. All that does also too is it relieves the stress that what you have to put on PPC. So on pay per click advertising, let's say on Google, you can have just a Google campaign, just that's all you have. You're not really focusing on on paper, on on SEO or local search or what have you. You can have just a campaign focused on pay per click. But here's the problem. If you do your pay per click, ads are going to need to be a lot more revenue. Why? You need to lean on those ads to get the benefit of what you're missing out of SEO and of local search. In a big part of our company is focusing on that. And so actually we we, we actually for our doctors, we can tell exactly how many patients are coming in from local, how many are coming in from organic, how many are coming in from from PPC. And then we we call ourselves tactic agnostic. We don't care. In the end, like a good wealth manager would say, I don't care what funds you're actually investing in, as long as your revenue in your ROI is getting the right rate of return and it's safe enough and secure enough that you're generating the right outcome in the future.

Art Wiederman: You're a sports guy, I can tell. So I'm sure you've heard of Jim Rome, the sportscaster. He always says scoreboard. That's what we're talking about here is what does the scoreboard say? How many new patients are we getting and are they the right types of patients? I want to talk about websites for a second. So when I talk to a client, especially a new one, one of the first things I'm going to do and I'm not a marketing expert like you are, I will literally go on to the Internet, I'll go to Google and I'll say, Let's put in John Reilly Deeds. John Riley Deeds. Eugene, Oregon. All right. And nine times out of ten, they're not on the first page. Now, forget about the paid advertising, because that's obviously the price is paid, but they're on the first page of the second page. Sometimes you'll find it on the fifth or sixth page. So, I mean, realistically, John, in this life, if you're not one of the first two or three on the first page, you might as well not be on the Internet. So talk about, you know, website and how we get to it. How does that work?

John Riley: Hey, everybody, Art is coming to work for us.

Art Wiederman: Well, I mean, I. I know enough about enough stuff. Have to be very dangerous. And I've been you know, I've been to enough, you know, marketing talks and talked to enough people that I understand how this works. So talk about that.

John Riley: No, absolutely. Is it? You're absolutely right. It's not just because you said it and I'm not giving you lip service here, is that it's true. Is it the front page, The first page? I mean, think about it. Is it how many how many times when you're searching on Google, we're such a microwave society that we want it now we How many times have you gone to the second or third or fourth page? I can't remember when I've done that. And the only time I would say I'm noona is if I'm trying to look for a very, very specific like jacket that that is now out of stock somewhere and I'm I'm, I'm searching until I can't you know until it's like, okay no one has any stock of it. But but on an average basis, if I'm looking for a restaurant or are looking for a dentist, are looking for this or that or the other, is it generally it's it's only the first page. And I'm going to I'm going to find it on the first page and then usually in the top three or four. So if if your website right now it doesn't have proper organic rankings. So SEO that you're, you're on page two or page three, oftentimes it might be the design of the website entirely. Oftentimes doctors will say, well, I like the look of my site, and I go, How many new patients do you get a month? They got about four or five. And I said, Well, actually you should hate your website. And I go, Why do you mean that? Well, I don't care how something pretty something looks, but if it's not generating new revenue or you're not generating new patients from your website, your website is the engine for everything. The 30 years ago, we used to remember the phone number, right? The phone number was what everybody memorized. I remember as a kid I used to have 30, 40 different phone numbers. As a kid. I'm 54 years old and I date myself here. But but then but I used to remember the phone numbers. Nowadays, people don't Phone numbers are not what people are. Memorize and memorize website addresses. Right. So that's the foundation of what you need to build doctor on and really focus on. So if you're if your website is not driving in the number of new patients and your and the number of new patients and the website go hand in hand, they how it's working and how good it is is reflective of the number of new patients that you have or don't have.

Art Wiederman: Is it also important, John, for a website to be congruent not only on a computer but with your handheld device that you talk about that a little bit?

John Riley: Yeah, even more so in the handheld devices is a great question. 75% actually even 80% of the of the searches right now for dentists are being done with a handheld with with an iPhone or an Android. And so sites have to be designed from a mobile standpoint. I can't even remember. I think it was like 2013 when we made the major switch to that. It's been growing and growing ever since. Although absolutely key for the other thing that's missing on most sites today is this is that this is this is the hidden morsel that if you heard this now our doctors know this because they go, John, you've taught me this for years. Is that one of the easiest ways to sell dentistry? Easiest ways to sell dentistry is by getting your patients to brag about you. And what I mean by that is that if you don't have any patient testimonial videos or patient testimonials all over your site and it's you telling the story or your website telling the story, you're bragging about yourself versus your patients bragging about you. Give you a quick example. Is Dr. Clay Hanson. I can give you this because he's allowed me to share. He's done podcast with me and and I can share this data. He started with us. He followed us for ten years from 2005 to 2015, and he says, I can't afford to work with you. From 2005 to 2015 2015 comes along. He is practice had not changed a bit. Basically the exact same year you didn't keep up with the level of inflation in that ten years at that ten year mark he called this happening is John I can't afford not to work with you okay transition now he's nearly doubled his collections He is. He is This last year we attracted 19 full arch cases. The year before was six. So we're starting to see this growth. This year is on track for 26. So the whole piece to the puzzle is that his the reason why is because we've talked about on his website, he needs to have excellent patient testimonials and there's more to this. But the piece is, is that if a doctor has patient testimonial videos on their website that that that they can future patients can see that then the patients are actually bragging about them. Quick go ahead.

Art Wiederman: You have do you like to see those testimonials? I've seen them I like I like them like. Right. As soon as you click right at the top of the first page, there is a patient. That's my Is that where you like to put them or do you.

John Riley: Again, you're amazing. Is that we call that the fold of a website. Yeah. You want to see something, write it right either at the fold or right below the fold of the website. So the doctor and the patient doesn't have to scroll very far to see that because it's what we call social proof. Social proof says other people have done it. So can I. Therefore, if if we have a whole bunch of social proof showing that I on the website going back to clay, a patient in calling Idaho Clay is in Moscow, Idaho, It's a nowheresville. It's and Clay knows this It's it's it meaning no one knows where Moscow it everybody knows where Coraline is. You're in Idaho every knows record lane is it's where the rich or rich live. Well he wanted to start marketing in Cortland. It's an hour and a half through the mountains and trees to get to court and get to Moscow. We started marketing there and a patient print it out. Who does this? Well, this patient had printed out 11 websites. He circled all the patient testimonials or what he could see on those printouts. And not one but Clay. Clay had, you know, a plethora of testimonial videos out of the 11. The patient goes, Listen, this hour and a half, no other doctor in Cortland has patients that are bragging about him. I'm going to I'm going to go down to Clay that he goes, Now, that patient has created a patient testimonial video now because he's a patient, it is. That hour and a half has changed my life. So we're not only able to attract from a local area, but also start attracting from Google standpoint or what we call is over-the-top marketing streaming ads that are very tailored to fit a very specific audience for if you want to be known for implants, we can target for boomers and seniors only or start targeting for our Invisalign or whatever. With teens and adults, these types of things can be done through strategic marketing and in that in that comprehensive plan.

Art Wiederman: Talk about I want to hit because we're getting to the end of our time, just fly so much when I have a great interview like this. Let's talk about direct mail. Do you use direct mail anymore?

John Riley: Absolutely. In direct mail is is very unique is that we've been known to be the number one USPS client in Oregon, meaning we're from Oregon, where we mail everything from is from Oregon. USPS is told us that we beat out Nike, HP and the only the only time that we ever get beat out is voters pamphlets or if or.

Art Wiederman: If Oregon's going to be in the national championship game in their marketing. No, go ahead. Just kidding. Go ahead.

John Riley: So So, yes, but it's not in every market. So so very much like, oh, a doctor has implants, inlays on layers and bridges and so on. Just because they offer everything doesn't mean the patient gets everything. Just because we offer targeted direct mail doesn't mean that A, they need to do direct mail. Because some people like implants versus bridges. Right. So just because we offer direct mail doesn't mean that the doctor gets it if they're in a downtown in a downtown San Francisco. There is no way we would ever I don't care if the doctor's willing to pay us thousands and thousands of dollars to do it. I don't I wouldn't do it because why? It's not going to work in certain areas, because the market of where patients have to come from is not just in downtown. They're traveling and 20, 30, 40 minutes to get to get into work. Therefore, their homes are not. We can't market to businesses. So it's a it's an we market to residents, of course. And those patients are coming in from too far. So direct mail is is another tactic. What determine whether a target direct mail tactic is what a doctor should use. But if a doctor says, hey, I only want to be digital, great, we're going to do digital in certain situations. We're going to say, listen, you're missing out on this market because the difference between targeted direct mail and Google is, yes, Google, you have to be searching for a dentist. Direct mail. Why Nordstrom? Why Bed Bath and Beyond? Why Mercedes? Why every top company in the world? Neiman Marcus. Everybody does it. I use this direct mail. Why do they do it? Is because they're persuading people to consider you when when eg. I already know that Google uses direct mail.

Art Wiederman: No, I didn't know.

John Riley: That you type in Google uses direct mail and Google ink. I use uses direct mail. You're going to get 20 pages of reports on why Google uses it. Why does Google use it? Google uses direct mail. And this is not our own. This is we are testing. I don't care what tactic we're doing for you, but a lot of you about direct mail is a dead horse. Ask Google, ask Nordstrom. Nordstrom stopped using direct mail and it tanked their business so much that they had to lay off a giant chunk of their their their workforce. So interesting that direct mail persuades people to consider you when they woke up in that day and they weren't even considering a doctor or anything, considering getting a new smile or getting implants or this or that or the other or a six or eight unit interior, you know, veneer case. They weren't considering that until they showed up in the mailbox to go, hmm, I'm going to I'm going to think about that.

Art Wiederman: But doctors and here's interesting. I want your comment on this because I've heard this a lot. I'll get a doctor who will literally call me up and say, I'm going to spend $5,000. I'm going to send out one 20,000 piece mailer, and that's going to bring me patients and I'm just going to do the one. And I go, yeah, no, I mean marketing. John It's about brand recognition. I mean, yeah, I'll take an example. You know, I mean, these jingles on TV, you know, you might have heard the one for one 800 cars for kids. Yes. You have the jingle, right? I mean, that gets stuck in your head, you know. Capital One, who's you know, who's in my wallet. I think that's what it is. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to create brand recognition. So when you're doing direct mail, you're doing this over and over again right now about.

John Riley: Yeah, yeah. Two things. As a when I met my wife, I didn't know her. I didn't I didn't know her enough to be able to say on day one that we're getting married. Right. What Why? We had to have so many impressions. Right? We had to build trust over time. So after nine months of of dating, I knew that she was the one. And now we've been married 26 years. It's a it's a great example of how any marketing you need. That number of impressions give you another quick story. Dr. April Ziegler I had been using direct mail for years and years and years and she goes, John, I've got to tell you the story of this patient that just came in. I said, I said, Oh yeah, what happened? And she says that she says, This patient came in and says, Okay, doctor, I saved this is true. It sounds so ridiculous. I have a video that I can even share with any doctor. Everyone see it from April that this patient comes in, goes I had I collected seven brochures and put them underneath a magnet on my fridge. So first of all, who would do that? Well, this patient had saved seven of them. This is this is all so crazy. Save seven of them. And by the seventh one. So. So after seven straight months, a month after month, every month, it took seven months. The patient goes, Doctor Ziglar, he's not going to stop marketing to me, so I might as well. CALLER okay, true story. The caller to do it. She does a seven or eight unit interior case on her. Her husband does a full arch. Her husband's mother. Our husband's, Yeah, Arizona's mother does. And a six or seven year. And your case and her husband's mother's boyfriend does a seven or eight unit. She goes, I think I got I think I got close to 60,000, 55, $56,000 of revenue off of that one patient that saved seven brochures. And to your point, it doesn't happen on one. She would have lost that patient after seven. She got it. This is this could be with any mark. It could be social media, it could be could be Google, it could be O.T., it could be anything.

Art Wiederman: Yeah. Two more things we got to hit. And then then we'll call it a podcast. Social Media Marketing. Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. Tik Tok. What do you like to do with them?

John Riley: Yeah, I love it. Is it what? Those are what I call the backup singers is that Google is going to be your lead singer, but the backup singers make a full sound, right? Maybe they make a rich sound. Make it that much more enjoyable. Same thing goes in your marketing campaign structure. Is that having a comprehensive plan that what I'll say is turning over the rocks is that if a doctor gets a direct mail, good example. Dr. Studer is out of Washington. We had a direct mail piece, but if we just stop there and didn't have all the other components and all, say, social media in a second, we would have lost this doctor's opportunity. Why? Because this doctor got a direct mail piece, went online, started searching for IV sedation, dentistry or dental anxiety, and then started to look for cosmetic dentistry. Every rock that this doctor or this patient protected prospective patient was looking for a $40,000 second opinion case. Every rock turned over. Scott Stewart's doctor calls up, says, Doctor, I saw you on social media, I saw you on Google, I saw you everywhere I turn. And and I'm wasting my time looking for a second, second opinion. So I'm going to come to you first. And if it doesn't work out, then that's my problem to find somebody else that that patient came in and the case is closed. The $40,000 case started. And because every rock, to your point is that every rock that that patient started looking, whether social media, whether it was on Google, whether it was on, you know, other social media platforms, Facebook or Instagram or or Tik-tok or Pinterest, even for big cases, there's a lot of different ways that you can market the big thing on social media and say, this is doctor, if you want to change the trajectory of your big cases, do it through and big cases as far as before and after photos, patient testimonial videos, have them post it on. This is the this is the nugget I'm going to give you for free is that this have them. So if you have a patient testimonial video and you capture it in the practice, ask the patient to post that on their own social media and tag you and then you're going to do the same. Why You now have access to their thousand followers on their on their on on their social media. And that's instant. We have a doctor in Boston that gets 5 to 10 patients every time they do that. So so there's strategic things you can do to really position your practice, but it has to be done from a comprehensive standpoint. We'll do a full, comprehensive analysis for each and every one of you that that wanted to see if we're a good fit. And ultimately the worst that you'll learn is a ton of it. You'll be educated on marketing because even if you spend an hour or 2 hours with us, whatever we'll spend, you know, initially it's going to be 30 minutes.

Art Wiederman: The last thing I want to touch on, John, is right. Key campaigns. You know, things like if you want to market specifically on Forbes or implants or full arch or sleep dentistry, I think I've told my audience knows that a dentist saved my life and got me on a CPAP machine 15 years ago. So I'm a big proponent of sleep dentistry and dental office. Talk about specific key campaigns and how you do that, and then then we'll let you give out your information one more time.

John Riley: Absolutely. Yeah. So, so we really when it comes to big cases, it's going to be nearly 100% in digital campaign marketing attribution. And creating a marketing engine is absolutely key here. Why? Because we track the transition of what the patients are looking for. How many times are they coming in looking for implants or sedation? Now those things are known to our doctor, so our doctors are now educated. So they not only came in looking for I.V. sedation, but they also came in looking for full arch dentistry or an all in for all and six or whatever. Now, the doctor's educated when they talk with that patient and so on. So the marketing attribution focusing on big case and then the magic tool here is what we call out is a is over the top streaming ads that when you have Google, your website, social media, all of that and you tie in O2 with a big case campaign, let's say you're focusing on you want to be the full arch doctor in your area or you want to be implant focused or whatever. O.T. is going to be the piece that drives to your website. They're not going to call from O.T., but if they're watching a Hulu or or Netflix or Prime, they're watching a TV, they're watching a TV show, they're not going to go off in that. They have to watch those ads. 94% of the people that are 64% of the of the people in most streaming don't pay for removing the ads. But 94 to 97% of the people that are actually watching. You not click out of those ads to finish their TV show. Therefore, you have a captive audience right then and there, unlike cable TV, where they can fast forward. So there's a whole strategy that we do depending on what the tactic or what service that you're wanting to provide and to be able to walk through that. And it's all calculated.

Art Wiederman: John Reilly, Executive Vice President of Amplify A360. Just absolutely fantastic information for our audience. Real quick, again, how can how can our listeners get a hold of you? And you had said you had made an offer of a complimentary service you might offer them. So kind of walk through that and just let us know how we can how they can get ahold of you. Then please stay with me as I take the podcast out.

John Riley: Yes. Thank you, Art. Yes. That to two simple things, two ways to get a hold of me. One is through Amplify, through SI.com, I click, get started and is fill out your information and we'll get we'll get in touch with you. Number two is if you want a little more discussion before getting started, no sweat. We can you can text me at 541206 3732 I'd be happy to talk with you in whatever length because again, I'm all about education. And what we'll do at that point is that we will set you up with what we call a practice growth, call our practice growth calls. We'll will figure out what are your goals, aspirations, dreams and hopes and desires. Where do you want to be in 5 to 10 years? Some of you might say I don't have three years left in dentistry. Great. We want to know what those three years consist. Or if you're just getting started, Hey, we want to look out ten years and now or work backwards. From there. We develop a what we call a practice roadmap. We'll do all this complimentary for you. And if you have dental x equals after an open dental, one of those three will actually do another level. Again, this is all complimentary before you start is that we can analyze your practice and say exactly how many, what's your PPO mix look like, What's your payer mix look like? And we can figure out how to take you from just a new patient standpoint, getting through that payer mix level and then ultimately getting into that case mix level. We'll do all that As far as a complimentary, comprehensive plan before you ever start.

Art Wiederman: John, thank you so much and really appreciate the great information. Folks. Marketing. You know, I had a a business mentor 25 years ago who told me something that I still stick with today. The day you stop marketing your business is the day your business starts to die. So you never, ever want to stop marketing your business. So like I say, John, hang with me for a minute, folks. Again, I want to thank you for the honor and privilege of your time and listening to my podcast. We have thousands and thousands of listeners who download all of our podcasts. It's a it's a four and a half year library of the business of dentistry, financial and management and marketing. And gosh, I think I've interviewed everybody on everything. I talk about stuff myself, really proud of the work we do. Make sure you go on to the onto your podcast app and download. Take a look at all the subjects. It's a library. It's literally a library. If you're looking for information on virtually any topic regarding the business of dentistry or financial planning and dentistry, anything like that, it's there. Make sure you go to our partner Decisions in Dentistry magazine WWW.DecisionsinDentistry.com 140 Great continuing education courses at a very reasonable price and they get a lot of new stuff coming out. What you're going to be talking about in the coming weeks and months, make sure you come and see me at the California Dental Association Convention booth 1472. That's May May 18th, the 20th in in Anaheim at the Anaheim Convention Center. And make sure that you register for the live courses I'm doing through the California Dental Association. If you're in Northern California, we're going to be in Alameda on June 10th from 10 to 230 in the afternoon on Saturday at a wonderful brewery. And on June 22nd, we're going to be in Sacramento downtown at a great event venue. We're going to be talking to young dentists about where to take your career. And with that said, this is Art Wiederman for the art of dental finance and management with Art Wiederman, CPA. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.

John Riley: Bye bye.